The Faith-Based Non-Faith of Daniel Morgan
Since today is another heavy mail day at work, I’m not going to respond to every comment Daniel Morgan made on my blog posts re: Witmer. In fact, I won’t respond to any of his comment yet! :-) This is because I’m waiting for him to respond to parts 6 & 7 before I do a full reply.
However, I did see that Daniel posted a response to Steve Hay’s over on the Debunking Atheism website. In response to a comment there, Daniel wrote that he does think it’s important to address presuppositionalism; yet he continues to reject the notion that he needs to account for such things as logic. Indeed, he writes:
The demand that I “account” for that statement has been shown, both by the nature of the internal/external issue, and by virtue of his attempt to explain how it is even possible/feasible, to be invalid.
This, of course, has not actually been shown at all. Instead, Daniel simply asserts that he doesn’t need to provide such an account and then ignores my response to his argument and then proclaims that it has been demonstrated. He likewise pretends it’s actually part of his worldview, even though he has no reason for it to be in his worldview and it is, indeed, antithical to the rest of his worldview. Thus, Daniel also writes:
Thus, I see this as quite relevant, for it shifts the entire nature of these debates from “hey atheist, give me a brief book on metaphysics,” to “hey presup, you’re demanding something of me that is inconsistent with my own worldview, and thus with your own claim to ‘internal critiques only’,” I think it is quite important.
This is simply amazing. Daniel is complaining that presuppositionalists require him to come up with a metaphysical position! How dare we! Don’t you know that philosophy doesn’t need metaphysics?
For that matter, logic is actually an epistemological issue anyway. But who’s keeping track? :-)
In any case, Daniel’s argument at this point pretty much matches the fundamentalist: “We don’t need to give you any reasons for what we believe; you’re just supposed to let us believe the way we do.” Unfortunately, such a thing does indeed undermine Daniel’s own definition of “reason”…
In any case, to set the matter bluntly and to call Daniel out on it: Yes, Daniel, I do want you to provide your metaphysical grounding. If you cannot do so, then you are basing your atheism on faith, and only faith, not reason. Therefore, either provide a reason for your position or admit that you are a fideist who therefore has no consistent grounds to attack anyone else’s faith.






October 30th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Perhaps you don’t recall the clear case that was made that you cannot “account for” logic without accepting its validity, nor do anything except accept logical truths as true. I do recall that case, and I find it quite cogent. I’ll repost the entirety of the convo at my blog shortly, but it’s from this thread:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/10/faking-it.html#comments
Some of your comments:
This makes absolutely no sense. So let’s look at your purported “account” for logic and ask, “is ‘God’ compatible with what CalvinDude just said?”
Do you reason your way from “God exists” to “therefore logic is valid”? Or vice versa? You don’t think you use logical truths along the way in both directions?
See the problem here…?
CalvinDude, I’m not joking. This whole idea that one can, or should, account for the axiom: “logical laws are true” is still beyond comprehension. You will use logic in an attempt to do this. Logic is self-evident and incorrigible. End of story.
October 30th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Daniel:
WHICH laws of logic are you referring to? Linguistic laws? Mental laws? Physical laws?
The fact of the matter is your “axiom” of “Logical laws are true” presupposes a definition of logical laws in the first place! It is not axiomatic because it is derrived from previous, more basic concepts.
It is encumbant upon you to establish that definition of logic. You can only do this if you engage in epistemology and metaphysics. Otherwise, you’re begging the question. Logic itself is not properly basic, Daniel; it cannot be no matter how much you wish it was.
October 30th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
By the way, thanks for pointing out you responded on that thread; I hadn’t looked at it for a while so didn’t see it. I will respond as I have time (alas, currently working over time so it might be a while for a comprehensive one).