John Loftus wants me to address the Euthyphro Dilemma. So I figure I’ll go ahead and do that. For a full definition of the Euthyphro Dilemma, click here.
The dilemma is a “problem” for divine command theorists, supposedly. Let’s examine it in detail. Let’s begin simply:
1. “Good” acts are good because they are willed by God.
2. God could have willed otherwise.
3. Therefore, “Good” is an arbitrary decree of God and we do not need to follow it.
But of course 3 does not follow. For that matter, 2 doesn’t either.
When I say that God’s commands determine morality, that does not mean God’s commands are an ad hoc arbitrary set of decrees. They could theoretically be so, but they are not in actually because God commands based on His nature.
God’s nature is a part of who He is. It is an attribute of God, just as it is an attribute of God to say that He is omnipresent.
If God’s commands are based on His nature (which means His will is based on His nature) then they are not arbitrary commands, but instead a reflection of Who God is.
The argument against this is: “If morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God, then there is no reason either to care about God’s moral goodness or to worship him.” But this likewise does not follow. There most certainly is reason to care about God’s moral goodness and to worship Him–God is the one who made the rules; He Himself is the reason to care and worship Him.
The fallacy that the non-believer falls into at this point is the fallacy of trying to make mankind equal with God. God is supreme to man, though, in every way possible. God is omnipotent–our power is limited; God is omnipresent–our location is localized; God is omniscient–we know only in part; God can set morally good standards–we must follow them.
When we worship God, we are recognizing His supreme value. We recognize that the only reason we have value is because God values us. We acknowledge that God is Creator and Sovereign over all things, including the boundaries of what behavior we should or should not engage in.
Atheists don’t like to hear this. From the beginning, sin has always been an attempt on man’s part to usurp God. (The serpent, after all, tempted Adam and Eve with the promise: “you shall be as gods.”) Part of our usurption of God’s authority is our delusion of thinking that we can come up with better moral standards than God. It is only that kind of thinking that can be so audatious as to say, “If God’s commands are arbitrary, we don’t have to obey them.”
This, naturally, presupposes that “arbitrary commands do not need to be followed.” But how does the atheist know this? The atheist is assuming a morality–that one does not need to follow arbitrary commands–and then condemning the position of the divine theorist, all the while ignoring the fact that the divine theory is consistent within itself and that it is only when one imports an alien morality that one can claim “contradiction.”
Now, supposedly, the divine command theory suffers from the “emptiness” problem when we look at the above. The atheist will claim that saying “God is good” when something is good only because God commands it is nothing more than an empty tautology. “God is good” is therefore true, but trivially pointless.
But this ignores the fact that the statement “God is good” points to an object–God Himself. It is the case that this functions as a tautology, but it is one of definition. That is, we are saying God is the standard of goodness; thus if one is going to define goodness, one points to God. If this is “empty” then all definitions are empty.
If I said, “The ball is brown” then I am referencing the concept of ”browness.” The concept of “brown” is defined as specific wavelengths of light (for simplicity, wavelength X). Thus if I have wavelength Y and wish to determine if it is “brown”, I compare it to wavelength X. If they are the same, then I say wavelength Y is “brown”; if it is different it is not “brown.” So thus I say:
Wavelength X is brown.
The atheist would say, “That is an empty tautology and is meaningless.”
But it is not. Likewise, saying “God is good” is not meaningless because God exists and we can compare our behavior to what He says is good. He is the standard, and since He is not empty the phrase “God is good” is not empty.
The atheist will then try the “abhorrent comands” falacy. But this falacy is blatantly absurd since it obviously imports a morality not found in the concepts of divine command theory and then pretends that divine command theory is contradictory. If divine command theory is correct, though, none of the commands of God are “abhorrent” even if we think they are.
Thus, we see that the arguments against divine command theory rely on presuppositions not found in divine command theory. It remains internally consistent, even if it contradicts an external thought. As such, the atheist must prove his presuppositions correct in order to show how divine command theory fails.






May 20th, 2006 at 6:15 am
I do have to critique one thing you said about the serpent–the serpent didn’t lie. In Gen 3:22, we see God confirm what the Serpent promised: they had BECOME like God, knowing good and evil.
Obviously, this implies they didn’t know good and evil before, which is an allegorical way of saying that we develop moral consciousness at a point in our development [which is true of the individual and of the human race, from an evolutionary-historical perspective].
You are still presupposing the Bible as your source for what God is, what God commands, and that God is good.
The same presupposition, with the same arguments, would follow from the Qu’ran, the Hindu scriptures, or just the Torah and Prophets.
THat’s the problem that John was pointing at with the “ivory tower in the clouds” — all religions can presuppose their own Scriptures, and find a way to fit reality with their interpretations thereof.
Also, Scriptures are all a product of mankind already having formed society and law and understanding a good bit about human nature and conduct. They weren’t written in vacuo. Thus, they often contain true insights, or outright truths. That makes it pretty easy to reconcile any set of Scriptures with reality (other than scientific ones, which are often more difficult). The Scriptures themselves would never have attained their status as divine, and survived, had they not connoted truths to the readers thereof, be they Moslem, Hindu, Jewish, or Xian.
May 20th, 2006 at 6:16 am
If there is no sense of “good” without God, then there is no sense in saying “God is good”, any more than saying “God conforms to God’s own Godness”
May 20th, 2006 at 6:26 am
PS: Check out this resource for more on godless moral thinking.
May 22nd, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Daniel wrote:
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I do have to critique one thing you said about the serpent–the serpent didn’t lie.
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I didn’t say the serpent lied. I said:
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(The serpent, after all, tempted Adam and Eve with the promise: “you shall be as gods.â€)
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Daniel wrote:
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Obviously, this implies they didn’t know good and evil before, which is an allegorical way of saying that we develop moral consciousness at a point in our development
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Actually, it is a literal way of saying they hadn’t broken the command of God yet. When they broke the command, they realized what evil was.
Daniel wrote:
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You are still presupposing the Bible as your source for what God is, what God commands, and that God is good.
The same presupposition, with the same arguments, would follow from the Qu’ran, the Hindu scriptures, or just the Torah and Prophets.
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Even if I grant that other religions can also presuppose morality, there’s a glaring omission there. None of those religions presuppose atheism. How does atheism account for morality? It’s not simply a question of saying: “Other religions can do it.” Such would be a fallacy–claiming non-religion based on the fact that every religion can claim a certain thing is nonsequitur.
You don’t believe other religions. You believe in no religion. How does your non-religion account for morality?
Daniel wrote:
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THat’s the problem that John was pointing at with the “ivory tower in the clouds†— all religions can presuppose their own Scriptures, and find a way to fit reality with their interpretations thereof.
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For that matter, you presuppose your own Scriptures too. You just don’t consider them to be divine. You presuppose a standard about what reality is. You presuppose some kind of Objective truth that transcends the individuals involved. You presuppose something that is unprovable–these are the axioms of your thinking.
The fact is that everyone does this, not just religious people. But it really isn’t relevant to discuss that there are disagreements between different individual’s presuppositions (such is an obvious given); the question is which individuals are living consistently with their presuppositions.
So the issue between theists and atheists boils down to this: can theists demonstrate they are consistent with their presuppositions (which I have demonstrated already) or can atheists (which you have not yet demonstrated, and for which John Loftus gets amazingly angry at me when I point out that none of you have done this yet).
Finally, Daniel wrote:
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If there is no sense of “good†without God, then there is no sense in saying “God is goodâ€, any more than saying “God conforms to God’s own Godnessâ€
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I would have no problem accepting that definition. God does conform to His Godness. His Godness is the definition of Good.
Again, the problem you are hanging up on is that you are not treating “God is good” as a definition. You want good to be some other thing–some abstract notion that God must conform to. But that only moves the issue one step back. If God’s nature is not the standard for “good”, what is?
If God does not define “good” then what does define good? Our will? If so, then where did our will come from (and God obviously couldn’t have been good or evil until He created us to figure out what was good and evil)? Is it some mystical standard of perfection that you cannot define but “just know is out there somewhere”? If so, I would ask you to 1) demonstrate this to me and 2) demonstrate why God must obey whatever it is.
May 23rd, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Socrates asked a fundamental question: “Is conduct right because the gods command it, or do gods command it because it is right?â€
Your answer is neither. God’s nature of character determines what is right, correct?
For you, morality is grounded in God’s nature, not in his commands. But this is a difference that makes no difference. It does no good to step back behind the commands of God to God’s purported nature at all. For we’d still want to know whether or not God’s nature is good. God cannot be known to be good here either, without a standard of goodness that shows he is good. For unless there is standard that shows God is good beyond the mere fact that God declares that his nature is good, we still don’t know whether God is good. Again, God is….well….just God.
Furthermore, we usually call someone good when they make good choices. So an additional question here is whether or not God has ever made any good choices. To choose means there were alternatives to choose from. Did God at any point in the past ever choose his supposedly good nature? Christians will say he has always been good. Then when did he ever make a choice for this particular nature, which he calls “good†over-against, a different nature? At no time in the past do we ever see him doing this. But if he did choose his moral nature, then it stands to reason that the nature he chose is, by definition, good. God’s nature would subsequently be called good by him no matter what nature he chose, if he ever did choose a particular moral nature. Again, all we can say is that God is….well….God, and his commands are….well….his commands.
May 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 pm
[...] John also responded to this post, and I want to highlight it because of how important this topic is. [...]
October 25th, 2006 at 9:57 am
[...] Witmer then moves on to the Conditional Problem of Evil argument, which I already addressed here and the Euthyphro problem, I already addressed (when John Loftus brought it up) here. [...]