Daniel Morgan Takes A Stab At It
If you read the comments section at this Debunking Atheism post you will see that Daniel Morgan has taken a stab at defining good and evil. (Apparently, Loftus still cannot do so.)
Morgan says:
Similarly, let me put forth a definition of “good” and “bad” to create a very simple moral framework:
“good” is the state of actions, events, and natural conditions which minimizes, if not reduces altogether, babies being slaughtered in genocidal warfare“bad” is the state of actions, events, and natural conditions which does not minimize, nor reduce altogether, babies being slaughtered in genocidal warfare
But this is, of course, a completely arbitrary claim. I could just as easily respond with: “‘Good’ is people with brown hair, ‘bad’ is people with blond hair.”
Morgan then “proves” his point by saying:
Of course, the presupps can disagree with me on the definition of good and bad here, which I have purposely restricted to the case of infanticide, as the result of genocidal warfare. If they do, though, I would love for them to explain how my definitions of “good” and “bad”, as objective markers, fail.
As much as atheists love to point out that it’s improper for theists to make them prove a negative, they sure like to insist on theists proving lots of negatives. Morgan can’t provide evidence for his definition of “good” and “evil” so he instead relies on, “You can’t prove it’s wrong.”
But of course I don’t have to prove it wrong. Morgan has to prove his definitions right. And that is something he cannot do in his atheistic worldview.
And that is the point that the atheists keep missing. We are not debating what behavior is or is not good or evil–we are debating how one knows what is good or evil.
Before Morgan’s non-answer of the question, Joe Holman attempted to provide a reason for saying something is evil by saying:
…nerve cells being rended, ripped, or torn by a hungry predator, sharp metal objects being plunged into soft bellies like a pearing knife through a tomato, a bullet penetrating a lungsack and causing a slow, painful death…these are things that all human and animal kinds realize are wrong except in the most dire of circumstances.
But this is absurd. Animals don’t know anything about sharp metal objects, bullets, or any of the like. They are not cognizant of these things. But even if they were, it would not magically make such things “immoral.”
Holman seems to say (as Loftus has claimed before) that pain = evil. But he cannot point to nature for this fact. Animals kill each other all the time. I’m quite sure the zebra thinks it’s painful to have a cheetah attached to his hamstring, but that doesn’t make the cheetah evil for killing the zebra. Similarly, this argument ignores the fact that massochists exist who actually enjoy pain. Holman’s argument doesn’t prove his morality.
The atheists are still left holding on to stolen concepts.






May 17th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Dude, once again you are confusing two things here. On the one hand there is suffering and pain. We all experience it from time to time, and many humans feel it extensively for long periods of time. There is physical pain, and there is mental anguish (over the loss of a loved one, or a loved one who is punished though believed to be innocent. This is one thing.
The other thing you deal with is an evaluative judgment about whether such suffering and pain are necessary, needed, and/or can be justified by your theology.
All you state is that God says he can justify this amount of pain we experience, and you believe he has said so in the Bible. That’s all you’re doing here.
One of the reasons we do not believe the Bible is that your theology doesn’t adequately explain the amount of pain and suffering we experience in the world. We do not need an ultimate standard, just like we don’t need an ultimate standard to say we like a song, or a poem, or a sunset over the ocean. We judge by what we experience, and we do not like the amount of pain we experience.
So, you must now do one of two things here. You must show why you believe the Bible is God’s Word. I’d like to see you try. Or you must give some reasons why there is so much pain and suffering in our experience. Again, I’d like to see you try.
When you do, let me know, and we’ll engage in a discussion of these two things.
You have never once attempted to do what you must do in showing that the amount of suffering we experience in our world is good.
Now, if that puts us at a standstill or impasse, then it does. This is where worldviews collide. Our worldviews here are incommensurable at this very point. We’re at an impasse. This is the point where we can go no further. So, unless you want to provide us with reasons for the suffering we experience or provide reasons for believing the Bible is God’s word, do not bother coming back to our humble Blog.
You are banned. Do not post there anymore about anything. And if you are a christian then you should respect my wishes.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:18 am
Calvindude,
I would like to continue this conversation with you. I have been an atheist for around a year now, and have not yet sat down with seriousness and attacked morality and ethics.
I have no doubt that evolution has produced in us empathetic devices, because animals display empathy just as we do. Furthermore, evolution has produced in us a degree of consciousness of the pain of others that these very mechanisms are the “conviction meters” that we so often talked about as Christians.
I am the president of the AAFSA group at UF, a group of atheists, agnostics, and freethinkers. I would really love to hear the strengths and weaknesses of the moral arguments of theists and atheists.
I myself tend to disbelieve all claims of “absolute, universal” anything, while “objective” things are much easier to evaluate and render valid or invalid.
The real problem I see with nearly all of your arguments is that if you base your argument of morality upon divine command theory, we beg the question of knowing what God has commanded. In presupposing the truth of the Bible, you simply avoid this problem all together.
If you want to continue this conversation, just let me know, if not, that’s fine too.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:21 am
PS: I should’ve made clear — we consider your faith in the Bible as the revealed commands of God, and the subsequent theology and hermeneutics you apply (as a Reformed person, versus an Arminian, especially) as just as arbitrary as the rule I set forth.
Muslims, Mormons, Jews, and Hindus all do the same thing in presupposing the truth of their revealed religion, then extrapolating outward from there. The validity of all of the arguments is not necessary to address, as most all of them are valid arguments. The strength of their premises is what I reject and call false [and yours, of course].
What do you make of the Euthyphro Dilemma?
May 17th, 2006 at 10:29 am
Daniel has made a great point.
What if every time you said something I responded with the Euthyphro Dilemma? Everytime. Everytime. That’s why I am frustrated with you. You have one argument. Just one. For anything I write you respond the same way. I reject your argument. Now move on. And I’ve said that too. But you continue on.
Anyway, if you’d like to comment on my argument regarding the Euthyphro Dilemma, then you may do so on our Blog. Until you do so, you are banned. Respond if you can.
Can’t do it? Hmmmm. Then let’s move on. There are a number of issues we each have which are difficult to explain. I think I have fewer issues to explain, that’s all.
May 17th, 2006 at 11:51 am
John,
Boy, it just tears me up that you would ban me from your blog, despite the fact that I have actually provided an example on the very comments section this blog was written in response to for the very thing you ask. I wrote there:
Now you can ignore what I wrote, but you cannot deny that I have given you an argument answering “So, unless you want to provide us with reasons for the suffering we experience or provide reasons for believing the Bible is God’s word, do not bother coming back to our humble Blog.”
As to your charge:
I have responded to this already. I have already argued on your blog that what is good for God may not be good for us, and thus a morality that is subjective to us cannot be applied to Him. In fact, I again point to the very comments that this blog entry is a response to:
You still haven’t answered this. Instead, you insist yet again that pain = evil. But since you cannot answer the fundamental point (if God does not consider pain evil, why does He become evil simply because you consider it evil?) you merely repeat yourself constantly.
By the way, when you say:
This is exactly what you do, John. Just do a word search on your blog and see how many times you’ve said that God cannot be good because of evil in the world. The problem of evil is your only argument, despite the fact that you still have not ever once defined “good” or “evil.” Not even in here. The closest you come to is some kind of assumption that pain = evil; and yet this ignores the fact that you don’t consider it evil for a cheetah to eat a zebra and (I assume) you don’t consider it evil when a willing person inflicts pain on himself (a massochist). Both of these illustrations would argue against your point, yet you do not bother to address either of those concerns. Instead, you want me to just give you the floor and pretend you have a reason for morality.
Well, you do have a reason for morality–it’s called stealing the Christian worldview. But if you remain a strict atheist, you have no reason for morality. Morality cannot be anything other than your opinion; and if your opinion doesn’t match mine then, as you said, we are at am impasse. But don’t blame me for not accepting your morality, and don’t blame me for pointing out that you’re trying to force your subjective morality onto God Himself when He is God and you are not.
May 17th, 2006 at 11:55 am
P.S. Daniel, I would certainly love to continue our conversation. I will post more as soon as I have time since I do have an answer for what you asked.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Dude, when then do you have to say about countries and cultures from Ancient greece to China to Japan to Muslim ones? Huh? To say I’m borrowing/stealing my morality from Christianity may make sense to you, since I am a former Christian and we live in a country founded by people who were puritans.
But that does not explain Confucious does it? It cannot be argued that he borrowed his morality from Christianity. And there have been some great societies in the past and some in the present which have no Christian heritage. Just because I do have this heritage doesn’t mean I stole my morality from Christianity.
And as far as the atonement goes, how does the death of Jesus on the cross do anything for us? Have you studied that issue out? What did Jesus do on the cross that was necessary?
And, I never have heard you argue why you believe in the resurrection, or int he Bible in the first place. Why do you? That’s what I’m asking.
And you have never addressed the euthyphro dilemma in a way that shows you even understand it.
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Let’s see, some girl is imprisioned by some heinous pervert for months and forced to do all kinds of sexual acts, and God caused this because of some selfish seeking glory/honor that he receives out of this? That makes God just as heinous as that pervert. In fact, God is a pervert. Such a God does not deserve any worship whatsoever…he deserves to be derided, punished and spat upon.
But according to Calvinists, God gets a free ride and can do anything with impunity to us on earth and we’re supposed to love it…or else. Such a God, if he exists, may rightly cause us to fear him. But love? NO WAY. If he exists, and if I am forced to follow him, then I will do so out of my own need to avoid pain. But I would hate him every step of the way.
However, since I do not think any God would do this to us, then I believe the Calvinist’s God does not exist.
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You just keep on spouting one argument.
To say I have just one argument against Christianity is absolutely ludicrous. There is the problem of evil, the trinity, the necessary existence of God, the authorship of the Bible, the superstitious ancient people, the problem of miracles, the resurrection, the atonment, and so on and so on. Ludicrous.
But my claim about you is very close to the mark.
May 18th, 2006 at 8:30 am
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